In Episode 178 of So you want to be a writer: Valerie launches Shelly Unwin's book! Discover how to get annotated books from your fave authors and how to get back into writing after a long break. Plus: the changing expectations of emerging writers. And we chat to Emily Gale, author of The Other Side of Summer.
Thank you so much for this inspirational and informative podcast. I've been listening to back episodes on the way to work after I do the school drop-off and the most common advice seems to ‘just write the book!!'. So I've set myself the challenge to write 50,000 words over the next 6 months – I'll let you know how I go!
Emily Gale has been involved in the children’s book industry for nearly twenty years.
In the UK she worked as an editor for Penguin and Egmont, and later as a freelance manuscript consultant and pre-school book writer. In Australia she has worked with literary agent Sheila Drummond, finding new children’s and YA authors; she has reviewed for Bookseller and Publisher, been a judge for the Victorian Premier’s Literary Awards (YA Category) and spent several happy years at independent bookshop Readings as a children’s buyer, during which time she was instrumental in establishing the Readings Children’s Book Prize.
Emily’s writing includes two novels for teenagers – Girl, Aloud in 2009, Steal My Sunshine in 2013 – and Eliza Boom’s Diary, in 2014, for younger readers. Her latest novel, The Other Side of Summer, was published in June 2016 by Penguin Random House.
Emily Gale has been involved in the children's book industry for nearly 20 years. In the UK, she worked as an editor for Penguin and Egmont, and later as a freelance manuscript consultant and preschool book writer. In Australia, she has worked with literary agent Sheila Drummond finding new children's and YA authors. She has reviewed for Bookseller and Publisher, been a judge for the Victorian Premier's Literary Awards (YA category), and spent several happy years at independent book shop Readings as a children's buyer, during which time she was instrumental in establishing the Readings Children's Book Prize. Emily writes for children and young adults. Her latest book, The Other Side of Summer, was released in Australia in June 2016 and has just come out in the US. Welcome to the program, Emily.
Emily
Thank you so much for having me.
Allison
And thank you for that lovely introduction that I just took straight off Emily's website, for all those who are listening.
Emily
It sounds nice when you read it. It's much better than having to write it yourself and listen to your own voice reading it.
Allison
Oh yeah. Everything always sounds much better when someone else writes it for you and reads it for you. It's lovely. All right, so let's go back to the beginning. How did you start out in the children's book industry?
Emily
Very slightly by accident. I left university, I was living in London, I desperately needed a job, and I saw this advertisement for editorial assistant at Penguin books, in particular with their Frederick Warne imprint, which is the imprint that publishes Peter Rabbit. And I thought, oh I know Peter Rabbit.
Allison
I can do that.
Emily
I had a very young brother and sister as well, so it was still fresh in my mind. So I applied for that. And got it. I wrote them a rather creative letter to apply for the job. And so that's how it all began, really. And it seems like it was such a natural thing now, looking back, but it wasn't really on purpose. I just really needed a job.
Allison
There's all these people out there who would really love a job like that, who are just gnashing their teeth going, oh right, can you tell me exactly what that creative letter involved?
Emily
It was very silly. But I did think, oh, you know, I'll just go out on a limb here and I'll put some of the Peter Rabbit characters in my covering letter and be a bit cheeky. And it seemed to work. Luckily my boss had a similar sense of humour.
Allison
And were you at this stage of your life thinking, I might write children's books one day? Or not at all?
Emily
No. I was definitely thinking, I want to write books one day. And I had been thinking that since I can remember having a thought. But it didn't seem very realistic, to be honest. Living in London and having to pay rent. It just didn't seem realistic to be a writer. I mean, how do you even begin to be a writer when you have bills to pay? But I thought, well, if at least I'm near books that will feel quite good. So it was a long road, but that was the start of it.
Allison
Right. And did you find editing other people's books and working in that area, did you find it inspiring as far inspiring you to write your own? What made you sit down and actually go, well, maybe I will have a crack at this.
Emily
Well, the first couple of years at Penguin were really about learning about the publishing industry. I mean, I wasn't working with authors at that point. You know, I was making up Peter Rabbit books and Spot books and Flower Fairies and all that sort of thing. Which was fantastic from a creative point of view for a certain time. And then once you've written 15 Peter Rabbit books you need to maybe do something else. So it wasn't until a little later that I was actually working with authors. And then doing that made me realise that although I was getting a lot out of editing, I was always thinking about “When will it be me? when will it be my words? when am I going to get around to it?”
But it's very difficult when you're doing quite well in one particular part of the industry to then think to yourself, oh, I know, I'll leave this now and jump into the huge unknown of writing my own books. But I did do that eventually after a few years.
Allison
So you actually left to write your own first novel? Or did you start it while you were there?
Emily
I left to go freelance. So I knew I was going to be still getting lots of editorial work. And then because I'd made quite a few contacts, I ended up getting lots of preschool commissions to write for Ladybird and that sort of thing. So that was good, and then it meant that I did have more time and more mental space, really, to start writing my own fiction.
Allison
All right. So your first YA novel, Girl, Aloud, was published in 2009. How did that come about?
Emily
It came about, first of all I decided to do Nanowrimo.
Allison
I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan.
Emily
So I failed at Nanowrimo.
Allison
I fail every time.
Emily
I got to, I think, maybe 35,000 words in the month. And then I stopped doing that and about a week later had a baby.
Allison
Press the pause button, yes.
Emily
And then I thought, right, I'm going to wait eight weeks, and then I'm going to write 500 words a day and I'm going to finish this book. So that was how that book got finished.
Allison
So it did happen? You actually did it?
Emily
It did happen.
Allison
Wow.
Emily
And then I rewrote it a couple of times, and then I tried to find an agent. Funnily enough, I'd already had an agent, and I'd lost one by that point.
Allison
Misplaced. Sounds very careless of you, Emily.
Emily
Another example of how extremely long and winding the road has been. But anyway, I did get this agent in London, Louise Burns, and she sold Girl, Aloud. It wasn't called that at the time. She sold the book to Chicken House.
Allison
And was there much champagne?
Emily
I thought, oh, I've made it. This is going to be everything now. This is going to be a huge success. And yes. And then I moved to Australia.
Allison
On the back of that.
Emily
Which is not a very good idea when your book is being published on one side of the world. It's a terrible idea to leave that side of the world and then go and live somewhere else.
Allison
So what happened with Girl, Aloud? Was it a huge success? Did it lead to another book straight away? What was the next step in the journey at that point?
Emily
No it wasn't. It wasn't a huge success. To a certain extent I felt a little bit divorced from the whole process. And the publisher made some decisions that I didn't really agree with. And that made me feel even more separate from the book, I'm very sad to say. And then the fact that I was on the other side of the world made it impossible for me to do any of the things that help to make a book successful. So I didn't feel very connected to it.
They did ask me to write another book, and I tried to second guess it and write something quite similar. Which was not really what I wanted to do creatively, but I thought I'd better. And then they didn't want to publish that book. So I'd written a whole manuscript because I thought they wanted that sort of book and it ended up that they didn't. So that was a big lesson for me, to always write the book that you want to write, and not the book that you think somebody wants you to write.
Allison
Interesting.
Emily
But by then I'd already picked myself up and dusted myself off a couple of times. So I just started a new book.
Allison
Okay. And did that book become your second published novel?
Emily
Yes, it did. That was Steal My Sunshine. And I managed to convince Random House to buy that one, which was the start of a good relationship with them over here, which was wonderful.
Allison
Fantastic. All right. So tell us about The Other Side of Summer, which is your latest book. Which of course has just recently come out in the US as well. What was the inspiration for that book and how did that one come to be published?
Emily
As I've mentioned, I did move over to Melbourne from London nearly ten years ago. And it's affected my very profoundly. And the ongoing homesickness has affected me very profoundly. So I always knew that I wanted to write something about that sense of homesickness. But I didn't want to write memoir, I didn't really want to write about a woman of my age doing it.
And I just thought wouldn't it be wonderful to write about a young girl who is on the precipice of being a teenager, but is also at that point taken out of where she belongs and put somewhere completely new. I thought that would be a good way of telling the story. And much more interesting for me to think about it happening to a child rather than myself. And I knew I could use a lot of what I already knew about moving over, but I could also escape into an imaginary world and make it a bit more special and magical.
Allison
And was it an easy write, the book? Given that you had such strong feelings about it, did that make it flow from you, so to speak? Or was it more difficult because you probably had quite a lot of feeling invested in it?
Emily
No, I had to be very raw and honest. But I found that cathartic. I knew that I was on to something because I felt very emotional every time I read the book back. And I thought, I think people are going to get that this is a really heartfelt story. I think that's going to come across. And it has, it has come across. Which is exactly what I wanted. And it's wonderful. I've had more of a response to this book than to any previous book, so that feels good. It feels like it was worth plunging into my emotions to create it.
Allison
Because it's not easy to put your heart on a page like that, is it? And I think that when you do that, I think that's when it does, as you say, you need to write the book that you really want to write, don't you? And those are the ones that tend to resonate the most with other people as well.
Emily
Yes. That's definitely true. It's difficult though, because everything hurts more as well. When somebody doesn't like this book, it feels extremely personal. It cuts deeper. But then the responses that are positive are so much better, because you know that you've done something completely honest, and you've given your whole self to the book.
Allison
And did your publisher respond to this one straight away as well? Was it immediately, “we love this?” Or was “well, you know, it's okay, but you may want to rework the middle?”
Emily
I had worked on it really hard before sending it to them. So they didn't get the dodgy first draft. And I'd had a couple of really trusted authors look over it as well, and so I had worked hard before I gave it to them. I so wanted it to be right. But yes, they responded straight away, and very positively, and I just thought, oh my goodness, I've actually done it.
Allison
So what's your writing process? Are you a person who plans everything out in advance? Or are you someone who just sits down and writes? Are you on a certain number of words a day or how do you actually get your manuscript together?
Emily
No, I never learn from lack of planning. I continue to not plan. No, I always start from character, and so I do spend a lot of time writing words that are never going to be in the finished manuscript that are me getting to know my main character. And that's fine. I think when I started out I thought, I can't write all these words and not use them. I can't just put them in the trash. But now I just accept that as part of the process and I don't mind that at all.
I usually don't really know what I'm writing about until I get to about half way into the novel, the first draft. And then of course that means I have to go back and write it all again.
Allison
Fix the first half. I am so relating to you right now.
Emily
So I do, I respond very well to those kinds of Nanowrimo challenges. I do respond well to setting myself goals. Not necessarily, I mean, I don't write a novel in a month anymore. But I do, I line up chocolate eggs and I say to myself, “you cannot eat one unless you've written 500 words”. Like, it's really, it's not very sophisticated over here.
Allison
A Pavlovian kind of response going on here, I feel.
Emily
It works. It works!
Allison
Now, you actually worked with a songwriter to create a song for the novel, didn't you? Why did you that? How did that come about?
Emily
Well, I've known Tim Reid for years. He's actually my partner's best friend from high school. And I've just always loved his music. I think he is such a gorgeous sensitive songwriter. And I jokingly said to him, way before I'd even finished the manuscript, oh, it's about a girl who's learning to plan the guitar. Wouldn't it be fun if we wrote a song for the book? And he was like, oh yeah, that'd be fun. And then I thought, well, why not? I really wanted to see what we could come up with. I just thought it would be gorgeous, and I thought it would be a bit different. And so he was up for it, so we did it.
Allison
Fantastic. So it's actually on the website, isn't it, if anybody wants to have a listen to the song? On your website?
Emily
Yes, it is. And he's written all the actual music out, the guitar chords and everything. He is so great. He's very, very patient. And he teaches kids to play as well. He's just a beautiful soul. So it was lovely to work with him.
Allison
And did you write the lyrics then for the actual song?
Emily
No, he put them together and then we worked on them back and forth. He read the book and then he came up with some lyrics. And then we worked on those together.
Allison
And did you find the song writing process interesting from the perspective of, you know, it's obviously quite different to writing… Like, you're trying to encapsulate the whole book, aren't you, in a sort of 3-minute song, which is quite a different process to writing the 65,000 or whatever it was words that you wrote initially. So how did you find that process of trying to capture the essence of the book in a song?
Emily
I think that Tim captured it and then I sort of fiddled with it. So I feel more like I was the editor of the song. And he came up with the goods.
Allison
The editor of the song. That's a glamorous title, isn't it?
Emily
Yeah, I think he came up with the essence. He got it. I mean, if I'd started from nothing, I would have come up with a basic nursery rhyme. It would have been terrible. Yeah. But he did a great job.
Allison
All right. So the book is now out in the US, which is very exciting. Yay! Available, I'm assuming, in all the places?
Emily
Yes, in all… Well, hopefully! I can't really go over and check.
Allison
No, that's very true.
Emily
But I believe it is.
Allison
And are you doing anything special from your end to promote it? Is there anything that you're doing or that you feel that you can do to promote the book in the US from here?
Emily
Nothing special, I wouldn't say. I'm on all the usual social media and I do spend time trying to reach out to new readers via those means. But no, I'm sort of back in my cave and working on another book and trusting that Harper Collins are looking after The Other Side of Summer over there.
Allison
Fingers crossed.
Emily
Yeah. I think so. They've done such a beautiful job on the book, and they've got a couple of really lovely trade reviews for it as well. So I'm hoping that that's a good start.
Allison
Because you are quite active on social media, just in general, aren't you? I see you regularly on Instagram, I see you on Twitter. Do you feel that that's an important part of the job? Of being an author?
Emily
It's really difficult. Because I think the balance is so hard to achieve. And it's actually really hard to know if what you're doing is paying off to any sort of significant extent. But I really, really enjoy Instagram, particularly. You know, there are some parts of social media that make me feel really terrible at the end of the day. And I think lots of writers feel that way. But Instagram never makes me feel bad. It always makes me feel really good.
Allison
So Instagram is your happy place?
Emily
That is my happy place, yeah.
Allison
And what is your handle on Instagram if people want to have a look for you?
Emily
Oh god, that is a good question. It's @emilygalebooksetc. You know when you just never know your own phone number because you never call yourself?
Allison
That's true. That's very true.
Emily
I should probably know that, though. It's @emilygalebooksetc.
Allison
Okay, terrific. Now, you are someone who has worked in all the facets of children's books, really. Like you've done publishing and editing, you've been an agent, you've reviewed, you've judged, you've worked as a bookseller. Does that make writing novels easier or more difficult? Do you bring that sense of what sells to the actual process? Or do you try to forget all that stuff when you're doing your own work?
Emily
I think unfortunately you do sort of forget, when you are writing. You know the way you just forget everything that's of any value and logic when you're actually sitting in front of a manuscript tearing your hair out? And then when you sort of walk away from it you think, oh no, I can do this. I can do this. That's a little bit what it's like. But I think probably the most useful part for me was being a children's book buyer at Readings.
Allison
I was going to ask you about that. What did you learn from that? Like, how has that influenced what you do as an author?
Emily
Partly, it reminded me of an age group that I really felt drawn to and really wanted to write for and that's that 11, 12, 13 age group. And that really decided for me where I wanted to pitch The Other Side of Summer. And it totally changed my manuscript. Because I'd started out making it a YA manuscript, and I had the teenage characters telling the story. And then I thought, no, this is the kind of story I want to write based on my years working at Readings, and the kind of readers who came in and what they were looking for. And it's, unfortunately teenage readers are harder to find. They have so many pressures on them at high school and reading for pleasure becomes much more of a challenge later on. Whereas that 11, 12, 13, that's when I became a reader for life. Those are the books that I remember from my childhood. That's when it really, really clicked for me that this was my thing. And so I wanted to write for that reader.
Allison
It's an interesting thing, too. Because we interviewed, one of our very first podcast interviews, you know, back in the day, because we're talking about 170 episodes ago. We interviewed John Purcell, who was the book buyer at Booktopia. And he at that stage was writing fiction under another name, which was quite an interesting conversation for us to have. Because he was telling us about the fact that he was there at Booktopia, and the representative for his book came in to sell his book into Booktopia. And he had that experience of having his own book sold in. Which, as you said, it's quite an interesting process and if you haven't listened to that episode, listeners, do have a listen to it. Because it's really worth the insight. But have you had that experience as well? In the sense that you understand how books are sold into bookshops. So are you, when you are writing your own work, do you have that in your head as well?
Emily
I don't necessarily have that in my head. I do second guess myself way too much based on what I know of the industry. But I have had some, I have felt very embarrassed in certain situations, when people have been holding my book and I've been a bookseller and I suddenly have to be the author. That feels so vulnerable to me.
So I had one afternoon at Readings where I approached a customer and she was holding my book and I just freaked. She said, “do you think this would be suitable for my seven-year-old daughter?” And instead of saying, “yes! That's a great choice. And by the way I wrote that, would you like me to sign it for you?” like a normal human being would, I proceeded to show her every single book in the shop –
Allison
That was not yours.
Emily
– as an alternative to buying my book. I didn't mention that I had written the one that she was holding in her hand. I sort of broke out into this cold sweat. She was by then holding about ten of the books I had suggested to her. And then right at the end I said, “oh by the way, I did actually write that.” And she just looked at me, like, why didn't you mention that half an hour ago? I just couldn't. I was being a bookseller. I didn't really know how to stop doing that and be the author.
Allison
And have you got better at being the author now? With a bit more practice?
Emily
Well, I've now been fulltime authoring for a year. And I don't know if I'm better. Because I spend so much time by myself with my dog. I'm not really sure!
Allison
All right. So while you were at Readings, you did get involved in the Readings Children's Book Prize, it all sort of began a couple of years ago. So why and how did that come about?
Emily
Well, Readings had wanted to do a literary fiction prize for years. And so that seemed like it was going ahead. So I put up my little hand and said, oh, well, while we're doing that we should probably do a children's prize as well, shouldn't we? And I think they were not very convinced that that would be viable. So I did a lot of research, particularly into the Waterstones's prize in the UK, and that has just become huge and so influential. And I managed to convince Mark Rubbo that we could do something just as great, and that the industry really, really needed it as well. I mean, he says I twisted his arm, but it was not hard. He was up for it. He was up for it.
Allison
Excellent.
Emily
So it was great. And it actually, I do think of it as one of the best things that I've done. Because, obviously I've left now and it's continued, and it's part of the literary landscape now in Australia and I just think that is so great.
Allison
Well, I was very excited about it because I was shortlisted for it.
Emily
I know!
Allison
So I thought it was a genius idea! A genius idea.
Emily
And the fact is, it is an award that makes a difference to sales. And that can't be said for every literary award. So I think that when they're run by an independent bookseller, they do make a difference. Everybody works a bit harder to sell your book. And that's what you want as an author.
Allison
That's exactly what you want. And I see that this year is the inaugural YA book prize as well, which is fantastic.
Emily
Yes. They've just released the shortlist, yes.
Allison
Which has possibly grown out of the very successful #loveOzYA movement, which you're also very active with that, aren't you? I see you hashtagging all over the place.
Emily
Yes, I do. Well, you know, Australian YA has been my way into this country in many ways. I've read it almost nonstop since I got here, so I feel very passionate about it. So it's been great to be involved in that movement. Which kind of grew in a very strange way. But it has become this really important organisation.
Allison
It's fantastic. And it has been very, very successful. I love the way people have jumped on board that and really taken it up with a passion. I think it's wonderful to see that. And it has to make a difference. It must. I can only think it must.
Emily
I think it does. And I think I was reading recently, possibly from Danielle Binks who is of course a huge part of that movement, that librarians have been making much more of an effort to put Australian YA to the front.
Allison
Great.
Emily
And I know a lot of libraries have the #loveOzYA posters up. Certainly, the library that I go and work in a lot has five or six of the posters up. And it does make a big difference. And hopefully we'll see that reflected in the next few years in library borrowings. But it's very difficult to compete with those big US juggernauts that come our way. And they're wonderful too. And it's not as though #loveOzYA means to distract us from reading international fiction. But in a small market, you do have to look after your own books in a special way.
Allison
So do you have a writing routine, per se? You have a family, you work in libraries, you've got all this other stuff going on. What is your actual, when do you get the actual writing done? You mentioned you're working on something at the moment with your dog. I'm all over the writers with dogs movement, as you know. So do you have a set time each day where you do your stuff? Or how do you work it?
Emily
It feels such a luxurious part of my life at the moment. Because when I started writing I had a small child and I was heavily pregnant. So that pretty much feels like the worst time to write a book. But it's often when women who've always wanted to write do start writing. Because you think, right, well, my life is about to be taken over by these aliens, I better get started on something.
Allison
I better do something useful.
Emily
But my children are now 13 and 10 and it is just so different now writing to when they were little. I don't feel guilty anymore. When they were little, any time I spent away from them writing, especially when I didn't have a contract, I felt the guilt of that. But now they go off to school and so I'm in my little cave until 2:30. And that's what I do. It's this gorgeous luxurious time. The only time I leave my desk is to walk the dog. Which is a very important part of the writing day.
Allison
It is.
Emily
Because it always dislodges some stuck thought or just refreshes you. I always come back from a dog walk thinking, what would I do without a dog? How did I ever write books without a dog?
Allison
Look at us, we are so kindred spirits in this. I hope you people out there are all listening to this. Because I bang on constantly about walking the dog and how important it is. But anyway. So let's finish up today with your three top tips for writers, apart, clearly, from get yourself a dog. What are your other three top tips for writers?
Emily
I do think that setting yourself word counts works really well. I don't necessarily subscribe to sit down every single day. That is too hard. Especially for people who have other commitments. But if you can just set yourself those small goals, you will find yourself with a first draft after not very long at all. So they work. Chocolate works too.
Allison
Chocolate eggs.
Emily
Whatever. Dangle carrots in front of your nose. It doesn't matter how much it feels like kindergarten. They work.
I always, always read while I'm writing. I know that a lot of people get worried about that and they think, I have to stop reading if I'm writing a book. But… Once you've established your voice as a writer, which obviously you do after thousands and thousands of words, I think it just inspires you to keep reading other people's work and keeping involved. And you actually really need that community around you, as well, and so supporting your fellow writers is really important.
Allison
Excellent.
Emily
Do I need another top tip? I feel like I'm in a terrible position to give a top tip, because I'm actually wrestling with this huge first draft at the moment. And it's put me back into that place where I think, should I really be doing this? Is this what I'm supposed to be doing with my life? Or have I made a terrible mistake?
Allison
Do you not also feel, though – and this would be, I think, a top tip – do you not also feel though that every single writer reaches that point at some point with every single manuscript that they write? Because I know I certainly do. I sit there going, I'm in a hole that I'm never getting out of.
Emily
I know that people say that and I read their books and I think, hm. I'm not sure. It's imposter syndrome. And I know that everybody does suffer from it, but when you suffer from it you do believe you're the only person who suffers from it. And you admire everyone around you and your book is just rubbish compared to everyone else's. And it's just terrible, this industry. I don't know why we do it.
Allison
So there's Emily's last top tip for writers. Don't do it!
Emily
Sorry!
Allison
Is that it? Perhaps we could leave on a positive note?
Emily
I know! I've got another couple of really quick ones. Okay, if you're on social media too much, get one of those apps where you can block yourself from looking at Facebook and Twitter. That's really great.
Allison
Do you use one of those?
Emily
Freedom is one of those. And there's another one as well. It was actually Liane Moriarty who got me on to doing that. She uses Freedom. So if it's good enough for Liane Moriarty.
Allison
Seriously.
Emily
It's good enough for me. And Scrivener. That's the new one for me. I've never written a novel on Scrivener before. But I'm writing a novel with four narrators and I really don't think a Word document would have cut it. The amount of times I have moved chapters around and moved narrators around. So, yeah. It was worth watching the tutorial.
Allison
So you're a new convert, are you? And you're an advocate?
Emily
Definitely.
Allison
Well, there you go. Those are fantastic tips. I think we've pulled it out of the fire with those last two. That was excellent work.
Emily
Sorry for falling down the spiral.
Allison
All right. Well, thank you so much for your time today Emily.
If you would like to read more about Emily's books, go to Emilygalebooks.com. I will put the link in the shownotes, and also to her Instagram account, which is definitely worth following. I'm a big fan of your Instagram and I love the fact that you are such a… What should I say? Voracious commenter. I like the fact that you get involved in everybody else's things as much as you do. I think it's a great tip for new people on social media. You're very social, which is excellent. And of course using Freedom to lock yourself out when you need to.
So thank you very much for your time, Emily. And Emily Gale, the author of The Other Side of Summer, out now in the US.
In Episode 178 of So you want to be a writer: Valerie launches Shelly Unwin's book! Discover how to get annotated books from your fave authors and how to get back into writing after a long break. Plus: the changing expectations of emerging writers. And we chat to Emily Gale, author of The Other Side of Summer.
Emily Gale has been involved in the children’s book industry for nearly twenty years.
